@dominic dug I like these ideas and am interested in how they can fit in the scheme of o
@dominic dug # my nomic strategy in the spirit of %4dDpJdJlzUrbu/ynxLPU5hY52f9nEF+EC6yu
@dominic in #nomic
Re: %4dDpJdJlz

@ansuz we don't currently have a clear definition of what a "player" is, so I guess you just pitch your tent and announce "I live here too now"

@dominic
Re: %Y3ySO6CVs

I don't think we need to force people to accept contact with other people's opinions, only a tiny minority of people are so stubborn that they'd rather be left completely alone. Everyone's perspective is unique, but it's not completely unique, because it's combined and shared with many others.

I think the important thing, is that you are not forced to accept a particular perspective (wether by force, or by technical features of the system) because if you are free to be different, then when you choose to be the same the agreement is more valuable.

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@dominic
Re: %Y3ySO6CVs

We'd quickly get a right-wing and a left-wing version Wikipedia...

I think you'd actually get more wikipedias than this, but they would blend together! left-wing and right-wing are not natural types. I think they are constructions which are the result of an adversarial political system. Actually, there are multiple factions within "left" and "right" and also, particular policies may be introduced by one "side" but then adopted by another, or what the sides stand for may change over time. for example: The Republican party was founded to end slavery, but over time, it has become socially conservative.

Unless you have a very closed social circle, it's pretty hard to avoid opinions you disagree with. Even if you get a bunch of apparently identical humans, whatever point of friction occurs will become a source of disagreement, and then seem like a big thing.

BUT! I think we are actually agreeing here, just using slightly different vocabulary

@dominic in #C4SS
Re: %fiGWpzUay

I would also like to discuss this! I curious because this article talks about game theory cooperation games (including linking to an entire pdf text book on the subject), and using "freed markets" to solve this problem. I'm very curious as to how a free market might provide coordination on these types of problems, but the article doesn't seem to describe this?

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@dominic dug Thanks for your explanation.
@dominic in #ssb-show-and-tell
Re: %BGqprH9Qk

@kas the only thing in indexed is the links, what is stored clear is that this message is related to another one, etc.

However, your private key is unencryped on your disk, so someone who has your hardrive can decrypt all that stuff anyway. We thought about encrypting the database, but it was a lot of complexity for uncertain benefit - the security of operating systems is so poor that if someone is running a program as your user or has physical access to your disk then you are basically screwed.

The best we could achive without a special operating system would be to encrypt the database and you key with a password (and most people pick very poor passwords, so some one with physical access could still probably bruteforce it - or brute force you!)

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@dominic in #ssb-show-and-tell
Re: %BGqprH9Qk

thats correct, the private messages are indexed, so you can query them, but you'll get them back encrypted, but they'll definitely be decryptable because otherwise they wouldn't be in the indexes.

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@dominic dug > The way the rule is worded I would not have benefitted from voting agains
@dominic in #patchwork
Re: %s3d8pC1gl

@ev yes, I just wanna nudge the various apps enough so they come together here, making it easier to reuse parts. But just focusing on a single API, to build consensus from there.

@dominic
Re: %Y3ySO6CVs

Yes. I am not building this because I want to help people like that have "free speech". Anyway, free speech is too easy. The thing that interests me is self-governance. We've dicussed moderation features before, but we have barely needed it (okay, subjective) because everyone has been really nice. Sooner or later it will turn up though - and I think that decentralized moderation will actually work much much better than centralized moderation. Firstly, moderation is a cost center not a profit center, so none of the centralized services really want to do it, let alone do it well. Secondly, there is no one size fits all moderation criteria - I often see people reporting top-down moderation that is clearly a false positive. It gets flagged and then someone in a sweatshop decides.

But if you don't build it someone else will anyway, I think the important thing is to build it, but build it well, and indeed, to think about how it works with your values, and what values it enables as you go. Technology is not apolitical.

Claiming to be "apolitical" is just a tacit support for the status quo.

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@dominic dug Oh. Perhaps I spoke too soon. I found sbot.private.read() and it looks like
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@dominic in #n00bquestions
Re: %pKiv28T8o

correct.

@dominic in #patchfoo
Re: %Yz2aH8SVr

btw, I think you could probably run bundle all the packages and run npm with a different cache location configuration and get it to install everything that way, but then you'd need to package npm too (although maybe that is already available?)

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@dominic in #nomic

simple voting

in support of my nomic strategy I want to have bootstrap a computer assisted voting system. This could prehaps also be viewed as a "poll" feature in patchwork. I think the simplest would be something like this

  • markdown description of the question/proposal
  • list of parties expected to vote, and required quorum?
  • options allowed.

Since we may change the rules, it's important that it be flexible. I think this basic proposal could support loomio style for/against/block, or normal voting. Delegative voting is more complicated, but we don't actually need that yet.

@dominic in #patchfoo
Re: %Yz2aH8SVr

@customdesigned yes but why have 500/20=25 sources when you could have not just have 1 "source"? at least for the javascript, and then only split out the compiled bits (libsodium, leveldb, nodejs, electron, etc)

@dominic in #nomic

my nomic strategy

It's gonna be a long time before it gets to my turn, and since in computer nomic I may both consult and conspire (R210) about future rule changes, I'm gonna play my cards face up and describe the general approach I intend to take, and of course, this is an invitation to work together to implement similar policy or negioate if you want different things. I'm gonna outline the policies I want to go for, details to be discussed in detail later.

turns

I want to abolish sequential turns. I think turns are a hinderance, and it should be possible to propose a new rule at any time. The key detail here is when exactly are rules passed? I think this part would need to be consistently ordered, but the votes can begin in parallel.

points

I support point system reform. I think the winning metric should be about how many people are playing, but for this to work it has to be fun. Fun is the most important thing, but maybe points lead to that? I support experimenting with the point system - maybe transferrable points? maybe "mint" new points and allocate them as prizes to fund public goods? we are basically our own central bank. I'm not against scrapping the point system either - but I think we should play with it first.

governance

I want to experiment with ideas like delegative voting aka "liquid democracy". Maybe you can grant your support to a proposal before it actually comes to vote, and that could be counted as a vote. Or maybe you could grant your support to a policy before the details are fully worked out. I think it's important to be able to retract your support - there needs to be balances like that. Also, delegation should still require some level of engagement, to keep it "alive" it's not fun if people arn't actually playing. We are the future government of earth, exiled in the past.

players

players are our citizens. It's more fun if more people are playing, there are two challenges here - get more people to play, and enable more people to play. I think this will require software to be written - tracking players moves and votes manually is too much work, and too error prone.

bootstrapping

There are plenty of people thinking about the future of governance, but the interesting thing we are doing, is just to start doing it, also starting with the standard nomic rules! So, we look at it as what is the simplest thing we can do, and build from there?

@dominic in #nomic
Re: %biUsF4Jha

Hang on, did @ktorn invoke e self as judge?

@dominic in #patchfoo
Re: %Yz2aH8SVr

@customdesigned I think the most reasonable option would be to just to take all the javascript as one package, checking in all node_modules, and then only using OS support for the binary libraries. npm@5 and yarn supported secure dependency trees, but you'd still need to run that pm inside the install script.

Would that be acceptable to the fedora pm's policy? it seems not that different to bundling all pull-streams, except it will be a lot less work to just make one bundle for the whole thing.

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@dominic dug @Dominic Here is a suggested feature: translations. It is a post that refe
@dominic in #n00bquestions
Re: %pKiv28T8o

yes, and nobody else will actually be able to tell whether they are messages to someone else, or notes to yourself!

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@dominic in #nomic
Re: %biUsF4Jha

aye

@dominic
Re: %xe54LZgnv

@mix please vote and stay in the game because I'd like to see the rule you propose!

@dominic sent a private message
@dominic
Re: %uU2erYxh8

I've also heard that you can actually store apples for months they are packed in straw, not touching other apples, and must be unwashed. As we know well, one bad apple spoils the bunch.

https://www.gardeningchannel.com/storing-apples/

Eggs are an interesting case, I like eating eggs, like buy them in 12s or 18s, and will still be good when I am finishing them. In the US regulations requires eggs to be washed, but they then require refridgeration. Unwashed eggs do not need refridgeration though! If you can get unwashed eggs, you can make them last really long, by coating them in vaseline, and apparently this is how eggs used to be sold.

@dominic in #running
Re: %E+OxB7V8J

how to make your own shoes from harakeke (nz flax)

http://teaohou.natlib.govt.nz/journals/teaohou/issue/Mao50TeA/c20.html

am sure you could adapt the design to other hardwearing plant fibers

@dominic in #offgrid
Re: %uU2erYxh8

@ktorn there is some discussion on this thread: mix and allana's new home

but basically, just avoid things that go bad quickly. I have butter, but not milk. I don't eat meat on the boat, unless I catch a fish. cheese goes a bit moldy, but that improves the flavor.
beans and rice etc store very well, potatoes, onions, cabbage, carrots (remove one leaf at a time, do not cut).

10 years ago, when I first lived in Auckland, in a normal house, we had a bad fridge, I started to get suspucious of it, so I did an experiment: I took three carrots and put on in the fridge, one in the 2nd small fridge, and one in the cupboard. Then I photographed the carrots each day. After just a few days the carrot in the normal fridge was going black, but the carrot in the cupboard was still mostly okay!

Unless you actively keep the fridge clean, it's likely full of "I'll eat this later" stuff that has started going bad, and this means your fridge is probably full of spores. No fridge just means I have to eat my eat-it-later stuff is eat-it-tomorrow.

@dominic
Re: %E+OxB7V8J

Gluing rubber is really hard, because rubber is soft and flexible. You'll be using a contact adhesive, not epoxy. Epoxy just magically makes two things into a solid object, but contact adhesives is a swamp. Heat is consistent with what I've heard though! Also, in my research around repairing/building flexible/inflatable boats, has led me to Bostik 999 (polyurathane) + isocynate crosslinker. Says it's for shoes too. Shoes of course are under considerable flexing and work stresses!

Looks like pretty evil stuff. There is the off the shelf "shoe goo" but I've not seen it work well, but maybe it's a question of technique?

@dominic in #ssbc
Re: %nRrLvsXTC

@andrestaltz that is relay-p2p in the TechTree! am we have discussed this previously, I managed to find this description by @cel but rough plan is to tunnel through the pubs, and use that to bootstrap webrtc and/or utp connections.

@dominic in #ssbc
Re: %nRrLvsXTC

So, is this just a reverse tunnel right? client A connects to a server C then client B connects to the server C, then is forwarded back up client A's A->C connection?

@dominic
Re: %Bp0mw/psA

lol

@dominic in #patchwork
Re: %s3d8pC1gl

Oh, the other convention in hypertabs is it watches the title attribute, and for the -notify and -selected class. -selected.
Depending on the layout, it may not make sense to support these, but if you have a button/title (etc) representing the page you can take the text from the title attribute.

@dominic in #patchwork
Re: %s3d8pC1gl

I don't see any code for an unload event there? Do you mean you literally emit an unload event or just that you watch for it?

It might be a better idea to rename them to hidden/visible events because also that wouldn't clash with already existing browser events.

@dominic in #patchwork
Re: %s3d8pC1gl

some things that I do think are important though:
the page needs to know whether it's currently on screen, or being removed.
hypertabs does it with custom events:

https://github.com/hyperhype/hypertabs/blob/master/tabs.js#L20-L28

I think there should be a way to let a screen know it's being removed from the DOM too, maybe an unload event?

does patchwork do anything like this? @matt @dinosaur

@dominic
Re: %AA6bZUFyE

aye

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@dominic in #patchwork
Re: %s3d8pC1gl

I don't want to make this too board because I want to find something everyone can agree on, so starting small. If that works additional conventions can grow from that.

@dominic sent a private message
@dominic dug I'll put together a design doc when I get back to VMS again. I'm going to l
@dominic in #patchfoo
Re: %Yz2aH8SVr

If you just put tags in the post, it can be indexed into all the channels, but support for that is inconsistent across the clients. I think patchwork@3 will show it in the channels tagged.

@dominic
Re: %FPF5Cmn8c

There are of course, multiple theories of money I think the best way to be wrong about this is to say one is true and the rest are false. I think they all explain aspects, you can have a state money (most national currencies) along side commodity money (gold) etc

@dominic
Re: %RYtSx8DOc

Need a crypto guru to help me get that right

Happy to help! replay attacks are easy, you just need to know that you are signing a fresh value, incorporate a random value you just created, and/or a monotonic timestamp.

One thing that I think would make this very powerful would be the ability to verify just part of the state. (as in a "liteclient") build in some sort of merkle tree, so you can just check the operations you really care about (i.e. your ones)

It would be good to see a description of how it works internally, the code example shows it's easy to use, but as a security auditor I need to verify the design is sound.

@dominic
Re: %FPF5Cmn8c

@customdesigned that's known as the "state theory of money" or Chartalism

Basic Idea: The state creates money and then demands taxes are paid in it. So to avoid punishment, you have to trade for money, then pay some of that to the state.

@dominic in #hashtag-vanlife
Re: %QpcVVyjVO

@nichoth that is so beautifully non-descript, you could hide it in plane sight anywhere. I can definitely see the appeal of a skylight.

@dominic dug Unfortunately I can't get authorization from the rest of the executive team
@dominic dug Similarly, onions can be cooked in a pressure cooker or crock pot with butt
@dominic
Re: %RYtSx8DOc

let me check that I understand: I don't see any code specifically refering to a secure log, so I'm guessing that this is secure simply by virtue of running on top of dat. To verify, I just clone the data, and run the read-only queries?

Needs a padlock with green tick logo ;) :lock: or what about a weird variant like a lock that is also a smily, or lock wearing sunglasses?

Idea: user database (on traditional, log-in website) - you cannot make the user database public, because even if you hash them really well, many user chosen passwords will be so predictable that you could still reverse them, it's only bcrypt (etc) makes it more expensive. But what if, instead of using passwords, you only log in with cookies? to log in on a new device, it sends you an email (etc) and you get a new cookie. The cookie is always high entropy, so the hash of the cookie cannot be reversed. So you could replicate this database, and check that it agrees with what you should be able to do, without that compromising the security.

@dominic dug When backing up before a new install, I accidentally left the hidden files
@dominic dug this
@dominic in #patchwork

I am wondering if we can have a shared standard for viewing patch* pages? I'm just gonna focus one one single api, but my goal is that you should be able to make new type of page (such as chess) and easily embed it in patchwork/patchbay/minbay/lola etc) so, looking at how the various apps do this.

patchbay@6/minbay

starting with this because I can remember offhand there is an plug called screen_view that is called with a string (say, a msg id) and which returns an element. The first thing that returns something an element is what is displayed.

opening a page is triggered by clicking on a link, which is handled in the tabs system.

patchbay@7

similar to 6/min but the api is app.html.page(route) (route is a string, as in 6)

calls to app.sync.goTo(route) trigger the routing system which takes you to that page.

patchwork@3

uses page.html.render(path) which is passed to the app.views in the start file, (outside of depject, at startup)


All these apps have different opinions about how they want to navigate between pages, and that is great, but they also also have a similar concept around a page I think this can be unified. We are already all using depject - we just need to pick a name for that api.

but also, I think we should consider the broader problem for a bit:

How does the page know it's visible again (there are no browser events for when something becomes hidden, unfortunately) but whatever is managing the pages could tell it. I think we just need these events:

  • create page
  • blur page (user has navigated away)
  • destroy page (will not be added again, unless recreated)
  • get title from the page? (to be displayed in a tab, etc?)
  • notification state?

One way to do this would be to have non-standard events on the pages. Another way would be to have some depject modules that it passes the location+current page element.

@matt @dinosaur @mixmix @ev @marak

@dominic dug @dominic you're right, I had actually done it right first, and later forgot
@dominic sent a private message
@dominic
Re: %FPF5Cmn8c

Haha, but the government needs to tax you to fund the enforcement of the property system. It's called a protection racket!

@dominic
Re: %wvBWjpjy2

@lostfile one of the core ideas that ssb is based on is subjectivity. One thing that is highly subjective is whether someone is worth talking to, or offensive. Some people don't suffer fools gladly, others find them entertaining. So, you can filter someone out of from your view, and not replicate them, no one can stop everyone else from seeing them. I wouldn't call this censorship because the power relationship is balanced - you have roughly the same capacity to block each other.

@dominic in #politics
Re: %dXbJitCkt

Maybe they had been using the crates to climb over the fence and invade the feild (civil disobediance), and the baseball authorities eventually gave in - Okay you can watch the stupid game! and then built a higher fence.

you could argue that this is still oppressive, but it's at least a better compromise, there are still boundries, but they are as you say, better fairer boundries.

@dominic in #ssb-show-and-tell
Re: %BGqprH9Qk

@happy0 I'd like to suggest also linking to the latest move as well as the root message, preserve the structure of the game where possible!

@dominic in #politics
Re: %dXbJitCkt

hey @dinosaur I found a better version of the equality/equity comic

equality-equity-freedom.jpg

although there is still a fence though right? what does that represent?

@dominic in #flume

I've had the odd reports of the database getting stuck, this is obviously bad. but if it does happen, try rm ~/.ssb/flume/*.json ~/.ssb/flume/*/* this will delete everything in the flume directory except for log.offset (which is the main store in the database, you do not want to delete that!) @mixmix

you can also check the current status using:

$ sbot progress
{
  "indexes": {
    "start": 126608429,
    "current": 126608429,
    "target": 126608429
  }
}

if it's in sync, the numbers will be the same, if they are different and not changing, it's stuck.

@dominic dug This is my dreeeeeaaam, [@eos](@hVgHk7ALjG14M6eQDUytycCPtvCCFqa0DQsCkkfQCs4
@dominic in #bitcoin
Re: %JNqv9S6tr

I remember that!

@dominic dug i also learned from [@josh](@4OR/xSKbQ0WWY7QTr7szYizISldc6MqqVScqKMKfdMQ=.e
@dominic dug new album from [@disasteradio](@0UewClQZ4GxJHHrLNPe5DgeVnYp1OeH8pG1uCrmfswc
@dominic sent a private message
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@dominic
Re: %6K6vgBN+E

@ktorn r202

In mail and computer games, instead of throwing a die, players subtract 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiply the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer.

Which is only -2 = round((302-291)*(7/10))

@dominic dug @dominic btw, I think we should close this and calculate my points. I suppo
@dominic
Re: %FPF5Cmn8c

@customdesigned This is the first I have heard of roads such as this! clearly this becomes more viable with transponder technology. I can think of one toll road in NZ and a bridge (but they are government projects). It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I would acknowledge a spectrum of "property" at the extreme right is maybe absolute monarchy, and at the extreme left is possessions. Like, your clothing. It's yours because you have it. If you pick up a rock it's now your possession. There are many layers inbetween those two extremes, like, I have a bicycle, and I think of my self as "owning" it, but the state doesn't know (or care to be honest) that I own the bike. It continues to be in my possession only because I have chained it up. A car, however, is protected by paperwork. since it's mobile like a bicycle, it's easy to steal a car, but it's not easy to sell the car because of the paperwork. If you brought a stolen car, and get caught with it it's a big problem. There are other ways around this for thiefs though, like steal whole cars and sell them as parts. This works particularily well for motorcycles as they are small, and the parts are expensive.

In Japan, they actually have a paperwork registration system for bicycles and you are in trouble if you have an unregistered bicycle, I'm not sure if I'd prefer that.

The nice thing about possessions, is that it disincentivises accumulating many of them. I couldn't sensibly protect 100 bicyles, so I only have how many I need.

But state enforcement of property makes owning many many things feasible (note: enforcement is theirfore a social good from a many-property owner's perspective) this tends to mean that relatively few people end up owning almost everything, and everyone else scrambling for the scraps, rather than everyone possessing what they need.

In different ages and places, different forms of things can be property. Currently, it's possible to own certain forms of ideas, previously you could own other people. The idea of owning land is widespread, but there are often restrictions as to what you are legally entitled to do with it. But it hasn't always been this way -- maybe you'd own family's hut, but the land belongs to the whole tribe. The point being, property is constructed, not natural.

@dominic
Re: %hjaxoweXU

heh, one of the lessons I learnt in my (thankfully brief) time as a door-to-door salesman was that you ain't gonna sell to everyone. Theirfore a quick "no" actually saves you time. Don't try to persuade everyone, just look for the people you can persuade. Oh, and be happy. If you are happy people will buy anything.

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@dominic dug alien abduction selfie ![abduction.jpg](&d6Em71IFTkWM7SW0MC2BTdGcwjBJnwptR
@dominic
Re: %AA6bZUFyE

@alanz interesting, yes my interpretation is that a vote against would get the 10 points on this turn, but if it passes, not the next turn.

@dominic dug # accidentally delicious I am a intuitive cook because I enjoy exploring s
@dominic dug Thank you [@kas](@dBQlwh9Gtr3i5YMOGtIOKtGNVepeu+nyb6KGl1vtOcM=.ed25519) I
@dominic in #nomic
Re: %d6GITFgHi

I'd vote for this if it went around a full circuit (terminology from R203), for fairness. that would come all the way around and apply to you. The rules could be very different by then, but the intent is fair. Oh, also note - the rule for scoring computer nomic games (r202) has increasing point allocations - by the time we are back around to @soggypretzels a 10/10 votes for your proposal will be worth 20 points!

@dominic
Re: %AA6bZUFyE

I agree with @soggypretzels about the rule number, failed proposals will form gaps in the rules, but it will make it easy to refer to everything.

@dominic in #boats
Re: %a+q/sU/nT

holy shit! now I have a bible verse I can quote.
thanks for that @customdesigned!

@dominic in #dyeing
Re: %cV4J3xm+w

@angelica what color and onions skins make? I'm gonna guess brown (brown is okay!) what range of colours can you other stuff like this?

@dominic sent a private message
@dominic
Re: %6K6vgBN+E

@soggypretzels so if @mixmix is not currently an active player what happens after @nanomonkey's turn, because mix is due to propose rule 304.

@dominic in #nomic
Re: %d6GITFgHi

why 5 turns, and not 7 or 10 or 3? I notice it will be @dinosaur's turn when this expires (assuming that turns are still in the rules)

@dominic dug One thing I enjoy about west oakland is the abundance of useful trash on th
@dominic in #flying
Re: %OwXsgFYg4

how do those sticking-out things become blind rivets?

@dominic in #boats
Re: %a+q/sU/nT

These are all fun ideas (as fun as toilets can be) but I think the point here is to just be as simple an reliable as possible. I just want to poop with a minimum of fuss, I don't need to get a robot involved.